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End of the year or the end?

23 posts in this topic

End of the year or the end?



The year is just about over as I write this.  Time to reflect back on what this year has been to me.


In late 2015 Black Ops 3 released with the news that brand new mapping and modding tools would follow early in 2016.  This was news that had long be awaited and dreamt of by so many in the communities.  Alpha testing of the new tools came along and a very good number of mappers from this site were selected to participate in the initial closed testing.  We were allowed to post certain things including videos of what we where actually messing with during the process.  For the most part it was a fun experience.  More people got added to the team as it progressed and more and more stuff was added, adjusted and fixed.  It quickly became apparent that the futuristic, unrealistic gameplay would be the norm.  Wall running and all the other non realistic things would be the way of the game.  Equally prevalent was the heavy slant of the tools toward the zombie sector.  Looking at this through the eyes of Luke Skywalker and the choice that he had to make as to which path to follow with the Force it became very obvious very quickly that many mappers, modders and devs chose to go the path of the Dark Side.  Zombies and the Wowie-Zowie mindset was going to rule the day with these tools.  Dont worry though we were told as mods would be created to address the needs of all factions and styles.........


So here we are with 2016 closing out and 2017 rushing in...


UnDead, unrealistic, pretty much brain dead gameplay is what those that are still playing this game will have moving forward.  This isnt a problem as there are a lot of players out there that love to run along walls, use futuristic crap gadgets, perks coming out of their ass making them even more awesome to the likeminded drones that they have evolved into. 


Mods will save the rest of us old-school types who believe in realism.  Do you believe that?  Even I dont believe it anymore.  The best mappers and modders are doing what right now?  Yes, making zombie stuff and embracing the drones of today.  Who is left to make the mods for us minorities?  Simple answer is no one. 


I hear talk that things are coming but I have been hearing that for so long now that I simply wont believe it until I see it.  In the meantime maps arent getting made because they havent a clue as to what to map to.  Should they map WW2 using imported shit looking models from WaW?  Should they go with modernish or simply go off the reservation and simply throw shit in a map and release it knowing that kiddies will lap it up and proclaim it to be the best thing since mom's milk?


Does it sound like Im ranting?


Im not.


I am simply disappointed in the direction that gaming has gone.  There are some attempts to revisit the past but the reviews are still mixed.  Some indies are coming like Days of War which is based on the old time fun of Day of Defeat.  Im keeping an eye on that one personally.  As a site owner it is difficult to cater to mapping when you dont know which way to go to help the most people.  I chose mp which also makes me a dufus.  Zombies is obviously the way to go since most are there already.  Problem, I hate the zombie style.  Always have, always will.  In fact, I have made this site a "Zombie Free Zone".  Other things that are disappointing is that after such a long time with out new tools the old mapping community was shattered, scattered or dead.  It was believed that the new tools would revive and rejuvenate the community.  Fail.  It is just as insulated and scattered as before and perhaps even more so.  There is lots of stuff out there informationwise but you gotta spend time trying to find it.  YouTube is our God!!  It is true except you go brain dead after watching hours and hours to see if the content is any good or not.  I made space here at this site for videos, downloads and tutorials.  It is so easy to use that people just didnt bother to use it for posting up new stuff because I guess they figured that since it was so easy I could do it myself for them.  Sure, I had nothing else to do....  The solution is simple.  I no longer go looking for stuff and since most of the stuff is zombie ass crap anyways it doesnt really matter anymore.  If some one sends me a link or mentions something or I come across something then ok I look at it and either add it to the site or not.  There are still some very good old school mappers here that help when they can and then there are some others from yesterday that have disappeared and live elsewhere.  They may return someday but that is their call and decision. 


Moving forward into 2017 I will continue to play with maps but more likely than not it will be UE based stuff and when I need a diversion I will play with radiant.  If things change so will I.  This site will continue to help those members that are still here and the site will remain call of duty based.  Other avenues will be explored and probably supported too.  The new mapping tools are really great but while the need to feed cheap thrill gaming hordes remains I cant see the gaming swinging back to a more realistic based offering.  Hopefully the tools survive and remain supported by Treyarch and Activision. 


I wish everyone happy gaming or mapping in 2017.  I have no idea what things will evolve into but then I dont mind.  One thing is for certain, Im going to hang on tight because it could be a hell of a ride!!

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Couldn't have said it better myself... That's all i wanna say about...

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Great post Steve and I agree with every word.

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I had to put my glasses on for that one.

I'm really disappointed too. I started my site hoping that it would be of some assistance to the MP mapping community, but sadly, nobody is even remotely interested. COD has evolved into zombies, and MP is getting a backseat this time around...so i've stopped making tutorials to put on the site. I mean it looks shit anyway, but if somebody asks a question, i'm happy to answer it here. It seems that nobody is actually interested in MP anyway.


I would have love to see zombies get dropped from COD altogether, and start it's own franchise. It's killing the MP community, and it's giving mixed help to those that need it.

Besides ZeRoY, I don't see any long standing mapper making both types of maps.


In the top 20 popularity of maps on steam, My two backlot releases take second and third place. That's not a brag factor (ok..maybe a little), but it's disappointing that for 8 years i never mapped, and after all this time, my amateur mapping has managed to get a couple of top positions. There's mappers that have been doing this a lot longer than me, and they've chosen tailoring Zombie maps to the under-aged kids that shouldn't be playing a horror based game in the first place. It's as disgusting as the Activision marketing ploy to sell COD to kids, even though it's clearly marked as 15+ in my country.


I think regardless of my efforts to reclaim some MP ground by re-skinning old maps to tailor to our older nostalgic generation, MP for COD is dying, and the only saving grace for a mapping community is to embrace another game altogether. Sadly, there is no company willing to put time in effort into mapping tools for Radiant. Not even the people over at Respawn.


I'm disappointed, frustrated, and almost ready to give up altogether...but I did that before and now I've had to start all over... So i'll keep my foot in the door, keep learning new things, and hope Treyarch makes a positive move toward separating Zombies and Multiplayer....but as always, I won't be holding my breath.


Edited by RaGe
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I agree with everything both of you have said, cannot believe the amount of zombie content being produced and have had people comment I should create a zombie version of a couple of my maps in the workshop.....not gonna happen. 


So my only course of action is to carry on building multiplayer maps for both WWII and MW, and will import whatever models I need along the way (sharing with friends only going forward, since the ambient sounds bullshit) sorry to those who would have just been able to see a post here and download them but others have made it this way. 

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when we spoke last night i had a similar post in mind steve but now that u already spoke every word i personally think of the way CoD went it saves me a wall of text xD


but your right on ever single point, seeing the majority of whats being created involves zombie stuff, and i really cant understand for the love of everything that is holy why this is.


What made CoD great u maybe think ? for me the awnser to that is custom mp maps and mods, not zombie crap?, what is zombie?, people who wanted to play zombie went off to play left4dead, no zombie related stuff should belong in a war game.

For me my contribution towards making mp content is limited to creating maps but if i see how much talent there is out there who did so much more in the past for mp and is now just busy with the zombie stuff then i feel we missing the point of CoD mapping and what made CoD great.

I remember the days when the tools came out everyone was so eager to get his mp map out to the public and custom mp maps for CoD1,CoDUO,CoD2 even CoD4 were rolling out after the first week, maps that are still played today.


I havent touched the bo3 tools either since for me personal the futuristic side of war isnt interesting for me to spend my time on but if i see what the tools are capable off then its disappointing to see that so far its being used for zombie

related things.

Seeing how many talented mappers came from MU and working now for Teryarch, so they should know what the community wants,likes, look at their own fantastic work, that should say enough about what they like to play and map for the most, they most likely dont care for futuristic or zombie crap but completely understandable that they do becuz its their work now.


here i am, putting up a wall of text myself also but why i think, its becuz i care/cared for all this. :(



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I have a different view on this - Having mapped for both modes on BO3 now I can say that it looks like both MP and ZM have great potential in BO3 - Killhouse remake I did is still very popular and so are the 2 projects I worked on so far in ZM. I dont think MP is dead at all when it comes to BO3, unlike ZM mode, we actually have everything already working in MP and can make full working map already - Granted you can in ZM as well but still some elements are difficult to achieve - So what is left is a simple problem: the base BO3 MP gameplay and default player models and Weapons. I get that unless you are making a map geared towards the BO3 style then it looks naf. So there is a solution to this and its to create a WW2 type mode. or a COD4 type mode (any interested?). Now myself and a few guys have started to look into this a while ago and we know its possible to do. The difficult part are the player models. Working with BO3 quality models we have something like 3 US players models and 3 German player models. Its not near enough what we would need but could be a start. as for the Weapons, thats no problem as of now as the porting is pretty much well understood and to great level too. 


So, what are we waiting for? Well, Im only one man, I cant do it all by myself - But, I will revive this mod project in the new year and you can expect something released in beta in the first Quarter of 2017. So now... its your turn! We will need good detailed WW2 style maps and not just reskins guys ;) 


Also I mentioned a COD4 style mod would be possible - this is because we have access to a number of modern type soldiers in BO3 and the weapons are all ported already.... anyone interested in that or WW2 only?


Anyway, chins up, if we build it they will come :)

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I get what you are saying Z and I understand that you are only one man.  There appears to be a lack of modders in the community these days.  Many have left.  Others are involved in other projects which leaves us in the position that we are currently facing. 


People are getting tired of the futuristic, the wowie zowie effects and abilities.  I think people are tired of modern day as well since it has been so done to death that unrealistic gameplay had to be introduced to make it "different".  A few of the other studios and Indies have listened to their customer base and are either attempting to do WW1 and WW2 and giving it the love that new graphic and engine power can deliver.  We arent "there yet" as far as Im concerned but it is getting closer.  Activision has shown no interest in this at all in my opinion. 


To answer your question of modern day or WW2 I would hazard a guess that WW2 is what is front and center on most peoples wish list around here.  I would even venture to say that a mod is being sought that has no perks, no kill streak bonuses, no leaderboard whoring.  A mod that exists solely to fill that realism void that probably only old school gamers can appreciate and younger players can only come to appreciate once they play with their hearts and brains.  A mod that is as simple but as complicated as that. 


I dont understand a thing about mods.  I dont know how much work it would be to strip out the engine shit with scripts or whatever to neutralize the g-whizz stuff.  I dont know if maps would have to be built in a certain manner to meet the operating criteria of said mod.  I dont know how much work it is to convert over objectives like the SD sites, dom flags etc because we have none of those now except for the stuff that is currently available.  As you mentioned, there are things from the modern style that can work and reduce the development time as compared to a WW2 mod in which more material would need to be developed.  My gut says that a modern day mod will only be met with a lukewarm reception. 


A WW2 mod could be built and could probably survive with limited models but I agree the greater the variety the more interesting it becomes.  I dont think there are that many people around anymore with the interest to undertake such a job.  Buster was great at it but I think he is gone for good.  I dont know anyone with those skills so I cant really comment on what sort of a problem that really is.


At the end of the day there is no clear path.  With no clear direction of what mod will win out then mappers are left to guess.  The layouts, terrain, virtually everything in map development is different from the modern day style map vs the WW2 style.  Im not in the habit of asking anyone to build something as complicated and complex as a mod.  It is not my time being taken up.  On the same page I dont blame mappers for griping about not having something to map to with no clear criteria to follow.  You and I both know that maps, good to great maps, dont just happen over night.  Just as making a mod takes many many hours so does a good map and I for one will not waste a couple of hundred hours making a map that will never be seen.


We can keep our chins up easily enough but keeping the excitement levels up is much more difficult and has already passed many of us by.

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I imagine the zombie community grew to what it is partly because there aren't as many maps officially released as multiplayer.  For most of it's life they would get 4 maps every other year.  They had to make more.  If they're the reason we got new mod tools, then thank you to them.  I don't fault Treyarch/Activision to cater them if they've been the most active these last few years.


Multiplayer as a whole has getting smaller for a while now on pc, so naturally the modding scene will get smaller.  Last mod tools didn't make it out of beta.


As far as WW2 resources go, besides the few models that zeroy mentioned, the only other character models you can get are from Black Ops, WAW and maybe COD 3.  They're not bad models, but they are old and people might not be interested in mods that use them.  The only other options are creating your own or ripping them from other games.  The later option probably won't fly and will get taken down.  For weapons, there's a few high quality weapons that have been remade but a lot still haven't.


Modern Warfare Remasterd could be a good source if the models can be ripped, maybe Ghosts too.  Other than that, we need to either wait for remakes for resources or hope some talented modelers make some stuff and share it.

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Models wise, player models aside, we have plenty. From BO3 and BO2 or even MWR / IW Zombies - its just a bit of time and effort required on the mod and it will have basic players models on each team but at least mapping for WW2 and playing that style will be possible. @Steve of course the no perks / abilities / jumps and so on are planned to be removed

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I'm happy to create original ww2 maps with a team, but a team would need to agree on a standard design of buildings, a set of prefabs, model sets, and of course textures. Country location of course changes this again.


As fun as it has been reskinning some old classics, crossfire will be my last one for some time. A COD 4 gun mod would of course bring these maps even more to life, but I think if any further cod4 maps are to be reproduced, we should take them back in time, not forward. 


But I am with zeroy on this one. The reskins aren't propelling people's interest any more than zombies. We need something new and unique.

I think ww2 mods and mapping are in every hardcore cod fans crosshairs, and it's up to us to assemble a team and move forward. I'm happy to start a long term project with a team, so I leave you all with that. I await the first message of interest in my inbox.

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That's a very interesting offer but for guys like me who are struggling with the basics I am never going to be able to bring any thing to the table.

It seems to me that Activision with the beta thing has created a inner circle of mappers who are now turning out zombie stuff etc.

The rest of us are just struggling to get our heads round it or in my case just giving up.

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Mas don't give up, when it goes well it is amazing....only produced three maps so far and only one of them what I would call release quality and the lessons learnt will make my next release flow like in previous versions of radiant......all those extra parts are enhancements that just need to be worked through Melvin over at CODUtility has done a whole host of tutorials, and there was a full series done by jbird32....take your time there is no hurry......


I am working on a mw re-skin for now, but will move onto one of my WWII and MW projects that did not get released before......one only made it to the outline stage........shame really will be a good map when done...

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I completely agree with Ieuan, giving up just shouldn't be an option. I think maybe you need to step back and familiarise yourself with this new Modtools. They really aren't that similar to COD4 and WAW tools, so thinking that way will probably get you lost.

It has so many new features it is kind of hard to grasp straight off, and I wouldn't recommend jumping straight into mapping an entire map before you've grasped the basic concepts that these tools have.


I find the best thing to do is make an open map with no sides..and make yourself some prefabs. Make it your mp_test.map or whatever, and whenever you're stuck on something, you go back there.

That's what I do when i'm brainstorming. Wakka and I brainstormed on destructive scenery, and after 5 gruelling days, we got it right. It takes patience and perseverance. Focus, and usually solitude. Put yourself somewhere where you won't be interrupted.


I was lucky my first map killingfields3 was a hit. It's still very popular today, despite when I look at it now, I can see what needs to be improved. Map after map you get that little bit better.

Don't give up Mas, think small. Then when you've mastered that, think larger.

We're still here for support when you need us.

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All I wanna say is that my ww2 map is still on !! Progress is really really slow but It will get done. So ww2 mod will be welcome any day... On a side note arn,t the bo1 sp playermodels useable there are German,Russian and even British commando in sp....

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